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    • My 'Reversion'
    • Why "MyBrokenFiat?"
  • The Archive
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Facebook, Baseball, Family and Communication

4/13/2012

10 Comments

 
Over on my buddy's blog, Philliedelphia, an interesting article began the thread you see below (through Facebook, though).
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The idea of there being "much bigger things" to complain about is a valid one.  Typically when folks (myself included) start whining about X, Y, or Z, there are at least a zillion other things more important that we could be sniveling about.  That being said, I take issue with the "much bigger things" argument being used to allow moral decay (via lack of responsibility, accountability and common decency) to take root.  Thus, I chose that moment to enter the thread.
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*Sigh*  (Sorry, Mar... I know you hate my sighs.)

Barring the fact that I could easily turn the argument around and say, "I, too, am a paying customer and I don't appreciate that garbage being spewed across loudspeakers to my children... I didn't realize it was perfectly OK for me to sacrifice MY enjoyment - and subsequently, my children's - so you could enjoy some anti-women screamo," and the ridiculous allusion to the idea that parents who refuse to be a party to this foolishness are simply "wasting... 'teachable' moment[s]," I responded incredulously with:
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Notice how, for pointing out the lack of logic behind her argument, I'm the one immediately thrown under the bus.  I actually did laugh out loud when I read that. 

Anyway, instead of registering that I'm simply demanding accountability from the ballpark for the music they control in what they bill as a family-friendly venue, she attempts broadening the argument to include every person in the ballpark, as if I even remotely alluded to an obligation on their part to manipulate the crowd into being saintly.

This is a common tactic that folks use without even realizing it.  This is what's known as blowing smoke in the face of real issues.  If we alter the perception of an argument juuuuust slightly (in this case, making it appear that my beef is with society in general as opposed to the duty of the proprietors upholding their image as family-friendly), you can have an entirely different set of rules with which to attempt dismantling your opponent (since the real issue is no longer in focus).  Lucky for me and all those communication classes I've taken, this is something I avoid like the plague.
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Again, she's going for that whole blowing smoke in the face of the real issue.  Now, instead of focusing on the problem of the ballpark failing to uphold its dedication to family-friendly entertainment, my words are warped into a personal attack, somehow devolving into calling her "dumb."  Instead of this remaining a civil discourse that has nothing to do with how we feel about one another as individuals (and rather, our opinions of the corporate decisions of a ballpark), it become as "Yeah, well... whatever.  You're just mean."

For the record, I very much like Beth on a personal level.  The two of us went to school together, I'm a huge fan of her family, and she's proven herself to be very intelligent, witty and compassionate.  This discussion doesn't call any of that into question.  Somehow, she thinks it does.

Which leads me to the point of this post.

I honestly can't help but make the connection between this conversation and darn near every other one I've had regarding Catholicism, the HHS mandate, or even politics lately.  It seems that folks immediately get threatened when you don't fall in line with their beliefs.  Worse, they get REALLY snippy when you call them out on fallacious statements.  Instead of accepting that the argument has nothing to do with personal feelings, any challenge to their ideology / opinion / belief  becomes a personal attack against their integrity as human beings. 

And yet I'm the one who somehow gets accused of being constantly offended or agitated by these conversations. 

I seriously can't help but shake my head and laugh at that.  Typically, while panties are in a bunch across the internet, I'm calmly typing out my thoughts, researching points, or asking for clarification on something.  Now of course there are certain things that'll rattle me (like spiteful things said about the Blessed Mother or remaining obstinate in one's proven folly).  There have been times where I've let my sharp tongue get the better of my charity.  But truth be told, I very rarely get upset about discussions (even "heated" ones) because I view them as opportunities to learn, teach and share. 

Folks think I'm attempting to convert or force my beliefs on others.  That's never the case.  I know better than to attempt converting someone through intellectual conversation.  Ha ha.  I simply can't accept half-assed logic.  If you've got an argument for or against something (and it's something that piques my interest), I expect you to be intelligent enough to explain yourself properly.  Many times, though, especially online, people aren't able to do that.  They've got very superficial ideas about things (which they love to spout), but the second someone probes a bit, tempers flare and panties get all sorts of bunched.


As someone who has studied the psychology of communication, this is a particularly interesting thing for me.  However, it's very concerning that this has become relatively normal, and I really believe this is due to the internet. 

But I digress...  (don't I always?)

The Garlands of Grace saga ended in much the same fashion (though a few of us are still plugging away).

I wonder what one can do to combat this sort of thing.  I enjoy open discussions and having my ideas challenged (as it forces me to really understand my own conclusions better), but I don't enjoy the inevitable fallout that seems to happen so much anymore.
10 Comments
Nicole P.
4/14/2012 02:44:54 am

it seems that a lot of people don't know the difference between an exchange of differing opinions and a demand that everyone fall in line with their personal opinion. I know this isn't the first time Beth has basically demanded that someone agree with her opinion, and if you don't, it's an insult to her and an expression of your unintelligence. She's not the only one, but that attitude keeps me from getting involved in a lot of Facebook discussions. I tend to stick with people who can rationally handle difference of opinion, which sadly is not a lot of people.

Reply
Gina link
4/15/2012 02:41:53 pm

Yeah - your comment of "that attitude keeps me from getting involved in a lot of Facebook discussions" is what I hear from a lot of people.

And I can understand that, especially considering how many times I've been burned, myself, when I attempt to have rational conversations with folks who can't understand that there are multiple ways of viewing a situation.

It's just very disheartening. Out of curiosity, did you even see this particular thread before I posted it? Seems like most folks ended up steering clear of it after the back and forth Beth and I had.

Ah well. C'est la vie, right?

Reply
Nicole P.
4/15/2012 11:39:16 pm

i didn't see this thread before you posted it here, but I did read the original blog posting after reading this (is it Frank's blog?), and I noticed that a person made a comment very similar to Beth's there too, accusing the writer of not being a true "Phillies phan" because they don't like the music- as if one has anything to do with the other. The reason I tend to stay away from a lot of discussion that blow up like that is the sensitive way people react. As you rightly pointed out, saying an argument is nonsensical is no comment on a person's intelligence, but that's the way a lot of people see it, and what could have been a rational discussion on different opinions devolved into an argument of hurt feelings and who called who dumb.

But don't worry, I'll still get involved in your discussions when the opportunity arises :)

Gina link
4/16/2012 01:01:23 am

It is Frank's! I thought it was a great idea (even though I loathe sports), and it's proven to be quite the success. He's got several people writing for him (though as you can tell, he keeps his pen going, too).

I believe it was picked up by CBS or something at one point and is now on their blogroll. How cool is that? :)

Anywho, thanks for your input, Nicole. I always appreciate it. I hope you know that! {Hugs}

Gina
4/16/2012 01:12:40 am

Wow - and here's something that's sad.

I got a FB message from a mutual friend of Frank and I (and apparently Beth as well). She told me she agreed with everything I said, but didn't want to "like" my comments because of the blow back that'd come from it.

*shakes head*

Wow. Seriously? There are so many things wrong with this picture that I can't even begin to get my thoughts straight.

It really does remind me of the prof I had in college who wanted nothing more than to flick me off the face of the earth for talking about Catholicism.

Me
4/16/2012 03:18:53 am

I see her almost every week so it's tough for me to comment or like anything she is against. That's why I sent you that message. It's gotten to the point where I've considered defriending her silently because she gets like this (but then I'm worried she'll confront me for doing that). No win situation for me so its best to just keep the peace by keeping my mouth shut, but then I worry that I do a disservice to you and other people I agree with because they feel like the only ones fighting back agianst it.



So I am sorry if you feel unsupported by my hesitation. Its why I messaged you afterwards. I do support what you say, and from the conversation I had with two other people, they support you too (and with Nicole P, that's three!). Its just a lot easier to remain silent over these smaller issues when you deal with people like this face-to-face on a regular basis.



Nicole P is right about that. People like this abound and they're the reason I tend to not comment on threads (or do it anonymously). You know who I am though so I dont count this. hehehe

Reply
Sanda
4/16/2012 04:23:36 am

Is GOG still going on? You'd think they'd've bitten the bullet by now. I refuse to check. Last I heard, they were spouting off evangelical nonsense that "proves" how backwards we catholics are. And I agree with your assessment of the ball park. I wonder if this Beth woman would argue that this type of music should be allowed in a Chuck E Cheese. That's a family spot that adults attend for birthday parties and the like. Would this sort of music be justified there, too? Let's blare it in supermarkets, too.

I find her backhanded comment about teachable moments to be incredibly green. Obviously this woman doesn't know the first thing about teachable moments for one's children. You are so right. We are bombarded on a regular basis with them. I refuse to pay for more through a sporting ticket. You were much more charitable than I would have been. She seems immensely daft - and arrogantly so.

Reply
Gina
4/16/2012 04:30:09 am

"She seems immensely daft - and arrogantly so."

Sandra, while I appreciate your commentary, I would ask that you refrain from remarks like the one above. As I stated in my post, Beth is actually a very intelligent person. She does get a bit defensive of her ideas (who hasn't from time to time?), but that doesn't open the door for insults.

As for your Chuck E. Cheese reference, that's actually a great point! Though I have to admit laughing at the supermarket one. I remember as a younger kid, a priest friend and I were in the store when he started singing "Put 'em on the Glass." He didn't realize what he was singing, and I must've turned several shades of blue as I tried (through giggles) to explain to him what he was actually saying.

Ha ha ha - even now I'm giggling thinking about that.

Finally, GoG has certainly quieted down. I think a lot of us simply gave up. I'm still part of the group, because I'm interested to read the commentary as it appears, but I'm really bummed that there will be no apology. That means my favorite veil shop is off-limits. Bah.

Reply
Gina
4/16/2012 04:32:58 am

"She seems immensely daft - and arrogantly so."

Sandra, while I appreciate your commentary, I would ask that you refrain from remarks like the one above. As I stated in my post, Beth is actually a very intelligent person. She does get a bit defensive of her ideas (who hasn't from time to time?), but that doesn't open the door for insults.

As for your Chuck E. Cheese reference, that's actually a great point! Though I have to admit laughing at the supermarket one. I remember as a younger kid, a priest friend and I were in the store when he started singing "Put 'em on the Glass." He didn't realize what he was singing, and I must've turned several shades of blue as I tried (through giggles) to explain to him what he was actually saying.

Ha ha ha - even now I'm giggling thinking about that.

Finally, GoG has certainly quieted down. I think a lot of us simply gave up. I'm still part of the group, because I'm interested to read the commentary as it appears, but I'm really bummed that there will be no apology. That means my favorite veil shop is off-limits. Bah.

Reply
Sandra
4/16/2012 06:29:42 am

My apologies.

I laughed with you at the thought of a priest singing that song. You heard it in a supermarket? I can't even imagine that!

GOG was a favorite shop of mine too. I just can't do the mantillas or the snoods. The mantilla is too old-fashioned and the snoods make me feel like an amish woman.




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